Question, Response or Comment

Q:   Can you please let me know the safe distance required for installing an auto gas dispensing station from a residential property, as per Indian Laws?

Vince

A:  The Model Building Code in the United States requires a minimum distance of 10 feet between fuel dispensing (gasoline, natural gas or hydrogen) and a service station property line.

Reference: 2006 International Fire Code, Chapter 22 Motor Fuel Dispensing, 2206.7.7.2, 2208.3.1, 2209.3.1

(Locating a service station next to residential property is controlled by local zoning regulations.)

 
Editor

Q:   What is the OSHA Standard for the distance between a fuel station and another building, i.e. mess hall?

A:  More information is needed. What is the fuel? Distance to dispensing site, storage (above ground/underground) or property line?

Editor

Q:   I would like to learn about all the necessary entities required to start a fuel cell production facility.

A:  There are many different types of fuel cells for different applications (stationary on-site power, portable power, automotive power, hand-held electronics, etc,)

Check out:
www.usfcc.com
    About Fuel Cells
    Types of Fuel Cells
    Benefits of Fuel Cells

Q:  Doing a science program for cable outlet. Need 4X3 NTSC video of a hydrogen fueling station, anyone have such video.

A:  Try the California Fuel cell Partnership ( www.cafcp.org ).

Q:  I am looking for infos related to fuel cell's reliability in a wider sense.

Marko Gerbec, Ph.d

Jozef Stefan Institute

Ljubljana, Slovenia

A:  If your interested in stationary fuel cell applications, there are some published field data:

Q:  I've been working on industrial fire and explosion hazards for 20 years, but I've not done much on hydrogen.

A:

Q: I'm student of Poznan University of Technology in Poland. I'm writing a thesis about applications for fuel cells in automobiles. I'm looking for a actual applications for fuel cells in automobiles. I need specific information, like efficiency, output power, type of propulsion in those vehicles. If you can help me, I will be grateful.

Krzysztof Plociennik

A:  Most of the information that you are requesting is considered confidential

www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review07/tv_5_wipke.pdf

As for "output power" and "type of propulsion", check the DaimlerChrysler F-Cell Home Page at www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0-5-7154-1-73792-1-0-0-135-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

Q: Are there any hydrogen generators built for marine power generation?

Carver Richardson

A: Proton Energy (www.protonenergy.com) sells a 2.2  kg/day PEM based water electrolyzer, HOGEN S-series, designed for salt air exposure. It is also CE marked.

Editor

A: Voller Energy, this June, will begin prototype testing on a 1 kW environmentally friendly fuel cell that aims to replace commonly used diesel generators in sailing and motor yachts.

Editor

 Q: Where do I go to find codes and standards/guidelines for the home H2 generators along with its interface with the home and car?

R. Paul Williamson

University of Montana

A: The answer to your question has three parts:

1. To site a hydrogen generator in a home, it should be "listed" or "approved" by an independent testing laboratory: therefore, look at the UL or CSA standards - UL 2264  A, B or C and CSA FC5, and CSA International Requirements No. 5.99.

 

Also Proton Energy (www.protonenergy.com) sells a PEM based water electrolyzer, HOGEN S-series, that is CE marked.

 

2. There is currently no installation standard for hydrogen generators; however, I would use NFPA 853, Installation of Fuel Cell Power Systems, as a guideline. It addresses the same safety issues; piping, shutoff valves, leak detection, alarms, ventilation, etc.

 

2a. Proton Energy has installed its HOGEN S-series

electrolyzers in residential/demo applications using the National Electrical Code, NFPA 52 & NFPA 55 or the 2003 ICC Codes.

 

 

3. The interface with a car is being addressed by the Society of Automotive Engineers, Fuel Cell Standards Committee, Interface Working Group.

See SAE J2600, - J2601, J2783 and J2799-TIR.

Editor

discussion below:

Q:  I am a Student and working on a project, that is about standardization of PEM Fuel Cells fed up with LPG based reformer in order to supply on board electrical energy for sailing yachts.

A:  For auxiliary power, I would start with IEC TC105 Working Group #7, to be published later this year as IEC 62282-5-1. Also see Q&A dated 9/20/05 below.

(Editor)1.10.07

A: Voller Energy, this June, will begin prototype testing on a 1 kW environmentally friendly fuel cell that aims to replace commonly used diesel generators in sailing and motor yachts.

Editor

Follow-Up Question

Q: I am so thankful for your answer. But I couldn't  find this IEC TC 105 Working Group #7 to read it out. Is it about CE Mark otherwise something else?
 
Whose of EU Directives for CE Marking do i need to enter such Reformer based Fuel Cell System into European and then USA Market?

What is the difference between Codes and Standards?

I must write a report about these Topic but i am really confused. The regulation and the required directives for CE, TÜV, DIN and USA look definety similar and complex. However my topic is also about on Sailing Yachts which makes the regulations complexier i think.


I ask you for your help

With my best regards

Evren Firat

A:

You should be confused. You’re asking complex questions, some of which don’t have satisfactory answers.

1.     Codes vs. Standards

The difference between a code and a standard is that a code carries the force of law.

a)    In the US, the standard for a stationary fuel cell is CSA America FC1. State (California, New York, etc.) building codes may require a fuel cell to be certified to this standard if the fuel cell is to be located within a home.

b)    The pressure vessel standard becomes a code (ASME Boiler & Pressure Vessel Code) because it has been incorporated into all 50 states’ regulations.

2.     Markings

The US and Europe use different systems to demonstrate that a product is safe. The US uses an independent testing laboratory, such as Underwriters Laboratories (UL) or CSA, to test products to specific standards and verify compliance. Europe uses self-declaration by the manufacturer that its product meets the applicable European directives.

3.     Standard for Shipboard Fuel Cell Power System

I know of no standard for a shipboard fuel cell, nor code (in the US) that would address onboard equipment. From a practical standpoint; however, the owner, and his insurance company would be very interested to know that this equipment would not be very likely to cause a fire or explosion and was somewhat reliable. To be saleable:

a)    For the US market:       You would have your system evaluated by UL or CSA, and they would probably use portions of CSA America FC1 (stationary) or FC3 (portable) and other considerations for a maritime environment to evaluate your product.

b)    For the European market:     You would have your system evaluated by TUV, and they would determine which directives your product should comply with.

Later this year, TC105 will publish IEC 62282-3-1 (Stationary Fuel Cell Power Systems) and IEC 62282-5-1 (Portable Fuel Cell Power Systems) as the result of its Working Groups 3 and 7 efforts. These documents will almost certainly be adopted immediately as European EN documents.

You are ahead of the curve. The standards will have to catch up. The first system for this application will pave the way for others to follow.

Editor 

Q:  We are planning to construct a Hydrogen Fuel Station at one of our petrol service station, making use of the available spare space. I would like to know what are the safe clearance- distances to be provided between equipments of hydrogen facility and the existing facilities. Where can I find out details on the above- codes & standards. Also, what are the safety considerations to be kept in view while constructing the facility- both operational and installation safety.

A:  The issues you raise are primarily site specific, so that my comments (although they may be typical) are only applicable for the United States.

This is a major issue in the United States. Clearance distances, are addressed in US state regulations. In most cases, this distance (50 feet from potential hydrogen leak to potential ignition source) had its origin in a decades old standard, NFPA 50 (now incorporated into NFPA 55). Although this criterion was not based on scientific data, it was never challenged because it was typically used in industrial applications where distances were generally not an issue. Now that there are potential hydrogen applications in retail environments, the US Department of Energy (DOE) is sponsoring research to determine an appropriate distance. It is anticipated that changing local regulations will be a slow process.

The National Hydrogen Association recently addressed this subject at its 2006 Fuel Cell Seminar. Presentations from that workshop can be found at: www.hydrogenandfuelcellsafety.info/h2techWorkshop.asp

The US DOE has scheduled a “Workshop on Facilitating Permitting of Hydrogen Fueling Stations” on February 1, 2007 in Sacramento, California hosted by the California Air Resources Board.

A valuable resource may be “Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Permitting Guide: Module 2 – Permitting Hydrogen Motor Fuel Dispensing Facility” which can be found at www.pnl.gov/fuelcells/permit_guide.stm

(Editor)

A: CSA America HGV4.2, Hose and Hose Assemblies for Hydrogen vehicles and Dispensing Systems (Editor)

A: The Society of Automotive Engineers' (SAE) Fuel Cell Standards Committee is the global leader for standards in this area. Its Interface Working Group is working on the following Standards: 

1. SAE J2600 for refueling devices up to 35 MPa was published in 2002. It covers only the nozzle and receptacle. It does not cover the hardwired

connector used in many demo vehicles.

2. SAE J2601 is in draft form, addresses communications and refueling

protocol. It has selected a wireless link for communication method.

3. SAE J2799 is the technical report for the 70 MPa nozzle and station to vehicle wireless communications to be released in the 1st quarter of

2007.

There are no current plans to institutionalize a wired communication scheme.

(Mike Steele/Glenn Scheffler/Jesse Schneider)

Q: It appears that there are two types of siting distances; A)those that are dictated by the flame jet (distance to combustible walls, public walkways, etc) where there is a danger from flame and radiant heat and B) those that are dictated by the unignited plume of released gas (distance to ordinary electricals, windows, air vents) where there is a risk of ignition/deflagration/detonation. The Sandia work seems to have caused concern about the existing distances, so people are proposing the "2 hour barrier" in lieu of shorter distances in the table. HOWEVER, that method is not being allowed for the "plume" type problems; e.g.; you will not be able to use a barrier wall to reduce your distance to an air inlet. It seems to me that Mike Swain's work at U of Miami would support reduction of distances for the "plume" type exposures, but I don't see anyone taking action on that. My understanding is that the ICC Ad Hoc Committee concentrated on the "barrier wall" approach to reduce what I'm calling the "Type A" distances. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE DISTANCE TO AIR INLETS AND WALL OPENINGS WILL STILL MAKE IT IMPRACTICAL TO SITE HYDROGEN IN MANY OF THE APPLICATIONS THAT ARE MOST LIKELY TO APPLY FUEL CELLS TODAY. I am interested in others views on this topic and what can be done to take advantage of what has been learned at U of Miami.

George Earle - Plug Power

A: In september 2004, a report entitled "Hydrogen Clearance Distances" written by Andrei Tchouvelev and a group of Canadian experts was submitted to National Resources of Canada for the Canadian Transportation Fuel Cell Alliances. The report was based, in part, on the work done by Dr. Swain and Sandia Laboratories. It put forth reasonable separation distances and the rational supporting its recommendations, in a code friendly fashion.

Editor

Q: Are there any fuel processor and fuel cell standards that apply to marine primary propulsions systems?

Rick.Kelley@MPS-Maine.com

A: The simple answer is no. However I would start with Fuel Cell (CSA America FC1 & IEC TC105 WG#3) and Fuel Processor (ISO TC197 WG#8 & WG#9) standards, and then add additional requirements for shipboard equipment from US Navy documents.

Editor

Q: I am looking for what the DOE calls the "federal enclosed-area safety standard" with respect to hydrogen storage. This is the standard cited in the FreedomCAR project goals.

Greg

A: The question relates to a table in a DOE document found at: http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/freedomcar_targets_explanations.pdf Under Permeation and Leakage, it appears that the phrase "federal enclosed-area safety standard" should have read "meets applicable standards" just like the targets next to it on the table (ie general rather than specific).

Editor

Q: My company is beginning a portable fuel cell project. I am the Safety Coordinator and am having a difficult time finding information on safe manufacturing principles. Can anyone give me a hand?

Bill Kitchen, McDowell Research

A: FOR YOUR OPERATIONS:A.The basics, excellent and free, 1. NASA Safety Standard for Hydrogen and Hydrogen Systems, Guidelines for Hydrogen Design, Materials Selection, Operations, Storage and Transportation (available at www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/871916.pdf), 2. consult your hydrogen supplier - he should be experienced with handling and transporting hydrogen and filling tanks. B. Other sources of information: CGA, NFPA 55 and ISO TC197 WG#7. FOR YOUR PRODUCT: Review your design with one of the following (depending on size) 1. CSA America FC3 - Portable Fuel Cell Powerplants or 2. IEC TC105 WG#8 - Micro Fuel Cell Power Plants

Editor

Q: In view of the codes & standards for Fuel Cell system testing, i will like to know what are the critical parameters that is required to establish when we performance testing for stationary power & vehicular applications. As there are a number of standards adopted by different countries, how do we justify which standard is suitable for adoption?

Sok Eng

A1: There are a number of ways that US standards are created, and deemed suitable for adoption. For example, ANSI provides accredidation for expert standards development organizations to develop standards in their areas of expertise. ANSI requires a strict consensus process to ensure a wide range of interested parties have access to the process and can participate in the development and review of draft standards. There are other standards development organizations that also create stakeholder committees and working groups for specific areas, but the bottom line is that they pull together experts in the areas to be covered who agree a standard is needed, and they develop a draft for broader review and input. Often the applicable trade associations are invited to participate to help ensure further concensus building. A standard, say, for hydrogen fuel cells in vehicles might involve participants from the SAE, NHA, and USFCC. In this case, the SAE would likely take the lead in the development of the standard, as they are a standard development organization. Their working groups are open to other experts and interested parties, as long as the participant contributes to the activity. Both the USFCC and NHA have active working groups tracking and contributing to the development of codes and standards for hydrogen energy systems and fuel cells. USFCC members can join this working group. The NHA's activities are open to all interested parties, and are reported monthly at www.HydrogenSafety.info, a free electronic newsletter that provides updates on activities and announcements when codes and standards development organizations are seeking additional experts.

Karen Hall

A2: The answer to your question is related to the regulatory system used in Singapore. Does Singapore develop its own standards or does it adopt standards from different parts of the world? (Product standards from North America typically are designed for independent testing laboratories to certify that a product is safe. EU standards are designed for manufacturers to self-declare that their product is safe. International standards, i.e. IEC, tries to hamonized these differences.) In the final analysis, all these standards are concerned with safety. You must identify potential hazards created by your product, and which standard best addresses those hazards. If you can provide insight on the regulatory system used in Singapore, and your product of interest, I might be able to identify specific standards for your application.

Editor

Q: To date, there has been considerable time and effort expended with the goal of producing comprehensive, international codes and standards to deal with gaseous hydrogen, in bulk, hydrogen ICE applications and hydrogen fuel cell applications. For over five years, a company in Canada has been selling significant quantities of a hydrogen fuel injection system that uses an advanced electrolyser to split distilled water, then inject the hydrogen and oxygen into the air intake manifold. In the engine, the hydrogen acts as an initiator to promote far more complete combustion of any hydrocarbon powered engine, with significant fuel savings, decreased maintenance expenses and dramatic reduction in tailpipe emissions. My question is this, what protection has been built in to the production of codes and standards to ensure that the legitimate protections required for 5000 psi tanks does not, inadvertently, create huge barriers for products with minimal amounts of hydrogen (22 psi in the case of the Canadian Hydrogen Energy HFI system)? Should there be a separate stream devoted to the creation of appropriate standards for products that use small amounts of hydrogen, and produce that hydrogen only on demand (i.e. no hydrogen is ever stored)? I would be most grateful for any thoughts on this subject and suggestions on how best to solve the dual challenge of ensuring that necessary standards apply to this sort of product - but appropriate standards, at that. Thank you.

Steve Gilchrist

A: Standards dealing with the storage or transportation of hydrogen should have no impact on the application you describe. I would; however, become familiar with the following electrolyzer standards:(1) UL2264/CSA America FC5, Gaseous Hydrogen Generation Appliances;(2) CSA Int'l Requirement No. 5.99, Hydrogen Generators;(3)ISO TC197 WG#8, Hydrogen Generators Using Electrolysis Process. In addition, the following SAE documents might provide safety guidelines for your application:SAE J2578, General Fuel Cell Vehicle Safety; SAE J2579, Fuel Systems for Fuel Cell Vehicles.

Editor

Q: I am currently seeking information on the availability of skill standards for technicians who would be working with fuel cell or fuel reformers. Do you know if there are such standards? Spokane Intercollegiate Research and Technology Institute (SIRTI) and the Spokane Community College are collaborating on the development of a training program. It would be great if we didn't reinvent the wheel. Any information on these kinds of standards?

Cathy Baxter, Ex., Spokane Community College

A1: Several similar programs have been started around the country. Among them are: Naugatuck Valley Community College (1 yr. certificate); Texas Fuel Cell Technology Consortium (2yr. assoc. degree); Stack State College of Technology (assoc. degree); Kattering University. I've asked representatives of the following organizations to respond to your questions if they have additional information: UTC Fuel Cells; General Motors; Plug Power; Fuel Cell Energy; Siemens/Westinghouse; US Fuel Cell Council; US Department of Energy

Editor

A2: Another similar program; California State University at Humboldt

Robert Wichert

Q: I am trying to find all the safety information on Hydrogen fuel cells, Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks Ed Scott Explosive Safety Office/Mission Safety Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter Code RP1, Bldg. 2 300 Highway 361 Crane, IN 47522-5001

Ed Scott

A: As a starting point try "Basic Considerations for the Safety of Hydrogen Systems". It is available from www.iso.ch as ISO/TR 15916:2004.

Editor